Question on basic goodness

The contemplation on how we are seek happiness and try to avoid suffering in every single moment – i.e. changing our posture, blinking our eyes, looking in the refrigerator for the umpteenth time fills me with compassion. I am beginning to recognise how those who hurt me deeply did so out of a misguided attempt to find happiness and avoid suffering. It is heart-breaking to recognise that they had this inherent love and compassion but not recognising it were filled with fear and acted in distorted ways causing suffering for themselves and others. This recognition has helped me to feel more tenderness and less self-hatred and resentment towards others.

Thank you for your answers both Lisa and Edwin.

I think I understand better now. The Path to wisdom is Buddhism and more specifically the Eightfold Path and the Four Noble Truths however the Joy of Living is more a way for people not interested in necessarily becoming Buddhist but to practice meditation in a secular capacity. Mingyur Rinpoche brought me to meditation through his videos and teachings which are dear to me and I am now finding a strong desire to become a lay Buddhist.

Thank you for helping me understand.

Jen – The four noble truths and the noble eightfold path are foundational teachings of the Buddha and therefore a foundational teaching in Mingyur Rinpoche’s lineage. I heave heard Rinpoche give these teachings but not for some time. The Joy of Living programs are offered in a secular manner so you will seldom hear him use such terms. However, awareness is a key element of the noble eightfold path and the practice of recognition of awareness and its accompanying qualities of lovingkindness, compassion and wisdom are the basic practices of the Joy of Living programs. So you could say that the Joy of Living teachings are deeply rooted in the noble eightfold path.

Hi Jen,
I have been going through this thread of discussions. Jen, the understanding of wisdom comes sometimes very slowly. I practice meditation on the cushion daily. This daily practice develops an understanding of one’s mind. Also, what I have discoved is understanding the mind allows one to see choices when the mind is running amuck. And I think that through time one makes these choices before the mind runs amuck. This is the path to wisdom. I would also suggest that you start taking the Joy of Living level 1. The meditation path is quite beautiful and rewarding.

Thank you Edwin for your reply and also to everyone who commented on this thread. I am very much enjoying this “conversation”.

I’ve been reading about Buddhism and I think i found information about what I was looking for. I was wondering how to go about obtaining wisdom and I believe the Noble Eightfold Path and the Four Noble Truths are paths to wisdom. From what I have been reading it is important to understand and practice these paths to gain true wisdom. Does Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche speak very much about these paths? I have only read The Joy of Living and have not attended any of his lectures.

Thank you!

I remember Djamgon Tai Situ Rinpoche saying this “in western countries the best quality for people is intelligence. In the Dharma, it is love and compassion “
And the Dalai Lama:
“You have to be selfish ! So you have intelligent selfish people and stupid selfish people. The stupid thinks only about what is good for himself, the intelligent about what is good for others”
So, for me, because i have a lazzy wild boar wisdom, the real wisdom is to have confidence in my Masters. I don’t speak here about the master of school or university or something like this. I speak about the Master, the “Guru” in indian language. Not a blind confidence, but based on experience like Buddha said “don’t believe what i say because i said it, but because you verified it is true “.
You begin to become wise when you have no more “hope or fear in the samsara” Patrul Rinpoche
“Wisdom is to consider what is more important, human life or PRECIOUS human life” Kalu Rinpoche
“Wisdom comes from studying the Dharma and practizing what says your Master” Kenpo Gyaltsen Puntsok from Palpung Monasterie.
” I don’t have wisdom enough to know if something is good or not good. Sometimes, something evil becomes good with time, and something appearing good becomes an obstacle.” Gyalwang Karmapa

Be happy

serge

Nicely put Kelsang
I would offer wisdom is a path. We are path people. While it is true “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” – that is not wisdom. It may be actions of very “intelligent” people. We have plenty of Harvard graduates running international affairs.
First do no harm. This is wisdom beyond intelligence. For example Rinpoche describes Relative Wisdom as understanding/experiencing impermanance and Absolute Wisdom as wisdom beyond concept.
This is my favorite example of a Wisdom qoute by Dilgo Khentsye Rinpoche after losing his country, his teacher, and cremating his daughter “A beautiful country is like a dream, like an illusion – it is useless to cling to it. Unless the forces of negative emotions are conquered strife without enemies will never end.”
Now that is Homeland Security!

I have really, really enjoyed Mingyur Rinpoche’s teaching. I just ‘finished’ Level 3 and really threw myself into his 2 books and the notes from the 3 levels. I have found, in my own experience, that awareness is like a white light which becomes 2 other lights–loving-kindness and compassion and insight/wisdom. However, it is more like one evolving into the other–awareness arising as compassion arising as wisdom. With awareness, I begin to see others as equal to myself in their seeking happiness and attempts to avoid suffering. Out of loving-kindness and compassion, I begin to recognize the consequences of my actions on others which is wisdom. Definitely, a wondrous teaching…he puts it in such a practice and simple way.

Jen. As I understand it, true wisdom is one that operates from the realization of emptiness. A mind that is bereft of dualistic fixation. The only way to begin to understand what that might look like is to examine the way we construct our sense of self and separate ourselves from others. Not an easy task, but a very valuable one none the less. In Tergar we begin this journey with the Joy of Living level 3 teachings. Of course that is a very over simplified answer, but we have to begin somewhere.

Edwin, I’m mainly asking this in reference to your quote above “Too much harm has already been done in the name of what is right but which is unfortunately bereft of wisdom.” how can we be sure that our actions and good intentions are done with wisdom so as to avoid harming ourselves and others? Thank you!

Edwin, I am very new to meditation and Buddhism and would like to know how do we gain wisdom? Are there any books i can read? I realize this question may sound comical in a way… “how do I gain wisdom” 🙂 but in the context of Buddhism, how is wisdom defined and gained? Any direction and advice is greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Serge/Mark. I would agree, we do need more than just a seed, however if our actions are not infused with wisdom derived from the recognition of our true nature, basic goodness, then I fear that it may lead to more harm than good. To much harm has already been done in the name of what is right, but which is unfortunately bereft of wisdom.

Kathy/Mark, Yes empathy is the basis on which we begin to cultivate lovingkindness and compassion for others. If we can’t put ourselves in someone else’s shoes, so to speak, then we will never be able to develop lovingkindness or compassion for them.

Kathy – I agree – Empathy (etiologically the antithesis of Apathy) is Wisdom, and Loving kindness. Also a recognition of no-self and interdependance.
Serge – I agree – we need more than just the seed. Every sentient being has the seed. As Rinpoche says, we need the soil, the sunlight, cultivation. These are the causes and conditions of a favorable human life. And Trungpa Rinpoche said we need “the manure of our experience.”
To the three Jewels!
mark

Sorry, my very basic english needs a dictionnary…and time to write about this so important subject. I never comment what said the great masters and i only try to understand. I wrote here in total respect whit what Djamgon Tai Situ Rinpoche, Mingyur Rinpoche, Kalu Rinpoche and all the great masters of all lineages transmited during centuries.
We are all “blind” because our fundamental veils. We have the seed of Buddha nature. That is ok.
And yes, I am saying that we need more than a seed to have a fruit.
What i call “amazing grace” is not cristian or buddhist or …
Amazing grace comes spontaneously for each one of us.
A pig (symbole of ignorance in the Dharma) can observe a knife during centuries. He will never know that it is a knife. And we are all ignorant “pigs” !
So, you said “by observing more and more”…”if you reflect about the consequences of your acts you will become more wise”.
I need petrol, you have petrol, i kill you to take your petrol. The consequence is that killing you, i have petrol. Not ?
What is more important in the world than me ? my kids ? my country ? and so on…
Me, my, myself, I, You, your, yourself, and so on. My first master is my navel. And because of this curious religion (adoring navels !) other becomes less than me. I can buy and sell kids, women, workers and the entire humanity. I can decide to kill him, eventually have laws that say ” i am i and we are we, jews, russian, tibetan, and people who have green eyes are not human like me-us”. Our history is full of such conceptions. And today we have countries who kill people. Officially. By law. “you have killed my father, you have to be killed”.
This is the first veil. Attachment for our navel.
The second veil is emotional.
Because we believe in what happens in our mind, we become crazy. Crazy of being jalous, anger, and so on.
These two veils make us blind. Our view is like a pig’s view observing a knife or his “basic goodness”.
That is exactly what i want to say. It is my life during years (and eons is said in the Dharma).
So, “observing” is not enough, and “reflecting about the consequences…” is also not enough.
What did humanity learn during the last 10 000 years ?
If you kill others, you will have more for you. Wars ! We give medal of honor if you kill a lot of people. Amazing ! and stupid !
Why stupid ?
It is not a question of good or evil. What is good for you is not necessary good for another. In Butan, this little country between India and China, some families are composed with one woman and three brothers, or one man and two women (the second woman is the daughter of the first with another man), … Is it good or evil to have sexual intercourses with the daughter of your wife or with the brother of your husband ? I don’t know !
What i know is very basic and not enough to have wise actions.
But i heard some people speaking about karma… and i reflected years and years about it.
One day, one of my daughter (15 y) said to me “Dad, i don’t believe about this law of karma”. I said “it’s not a question of believe or not believe, but to know by experience. You study science. It is very good. Look your daily life. If you plant corn, what will you obtain ? If you plant nettles, what will you obtain ? Corn and nettles, yes ? Never banana or carots. Or life is logic or not logic. Logic if i have corn with a seed of corn and not logic if banana with a seed of nettle. So, show me if anywhere in the entire universe it is possible to have banana with a seed of nettle. This is experience and scientific observation and has nothing to do with any religious conception of believe or not. If you find it, i will immediately say that Buddha made a big mistake.”
So, what i want to say is very simple. We have the seed of Buddha nature, ok. We have a seed of corn. ok.
But like a pig with a knife, how can i understand that it is a knife ? By observing ? Absolutely not. Because our karma of human being, we are blind. And we are stupid.
What is “amazing grace” ? Suddenly, we “realize” and not “understand” only a new conception about life. It comes one day or night. Because we have the seed (the fundamental cause) one day, we “realize” by reading, hearing or anything else (external cause). We can understand what is the law of karma. It is only understanding… Realize is very different from an only intellectual understanding. You all know it. I understand how to drive a car. Before driving correctly, “wisely”, we need some years… and because we are pigs, we need the police to help us not to forget the rules. And we forget because the two fundamental veils we have.
Attribute our Buddha nature to the Guru is a misconception.
Attribute our basic wisdom to the Guru is misconception. A flower doesn’t come from the sun or the water nore from the seed only. A flower comes from the combination of a lot of causes. This is interdependence or emptiness if you prefer this terminology.
What i mean with “amazing grace” is one day, because all the causes are present AT THE RIGHT MOMENT suddenly the effect arises. It has nothing to do with any external cause, external from our karma. The law of gravity from Newton doesn’t come from an apple ! Himself, he said ” i was on the shoulders of giants” speaking from all other scientists who worked before him in physic, astrophysic and mathematic.
One day, he realized something new. We can say “amazing grace”. I will say karma. We can say because emptiness or interdependance of all phenomena. We “can” attribute to his masters or what one wants. As “pigs” we “can” have a lot of misconceptions.
Edwin, is it more clear ?
So, how to have the right view ?
The right view to observe correctly…
Guru Yoga has no other form than to ask our Master to help us to have the right view. And devotion is nothing more than to want to become like. It has nothing to do with romantic or emotional feelings. To become like is to have the same qualities, nothing else. A lot of people speak about their Masters as they would speak about love. Why not. I did’nt meet Milarepa, i never read he speaks from Marpa in these terms. I heard Djamgon Tai Situ Rinpoche speaking about his root master, Kalu Rinpoche (the second) speaking about his root masters and Karmapa also. I never heard them speaking in the same terms as with human love. I have one root Guru. I have some Masters. Without a Guru or Master, you will never become Buddha. It is not quicker or not quicker, it is never. Without Mingyur Rinpoche, there is no transmission, there is no Tergar community and we would all stay as “pigs”.
Guru Yoga is “union” with the qualities of our Master. I feel so. Guru Yoga is not only the formal practice, but very more to respect what the Master says. When we write here, i feel it is Guru Yoga also. It is the continuation in our daily life of the wish of our Master to be with the Dharma. It is not romantic. To stay always with him is romantic. To be happy each moment is very hard. Because we are lazzy pigs.
Yes, we need more than a seed to obtain a flower. To “realize” our true nature we need to have the direct experience of our basic goodness, the first step. After that first experience, we “realize” that our life can become “precious”. It is not the end, it is the beginning of a long travel. Without a Guide, we will be lost in the jungle of our navels growing in a soil of destructing emotions.
It is my experience with my Masters
Be all happy
serge or in the Dharma, Karma Shen Pen Euzer.

Mark – Although we have not heard again from Serge, I suspect you are right that he is talking about devotion, or guru yoga in some form. Yes, it is a very powerful practice, but interestingly not part of the Joy of Living curriculum as Mingyur Rinpoche outlines it. We don’t encounter it until the Path of Liberation teachings. Now that does not mean we should not talk about it hear, but I would like to focus on Rinpoche’s understanding of basic goodness as he articulates it within the Joy of Living teachings. In many ways guru yoga is a wisdom practice and although not included in the level 3 teachings on wisdom, is essentially an expression of the realization of emptiness and non-self. When I get out of the way and understanding insight arises, where does that wisdom come from? We could rightfully attribute it to the guru, or amazing grace, or you could also say, basic goodness. In the manifestation of the ultimate, I suspect they are all the same. To realize our true nature, the direct experience of our basic goodness, is realization. The argument within the Path of Liberation is that this realization will happen much quicker when we embrace guru yoga.

Serge and other’s – Thank you for your comments and drilling down on this subject.
I hope my thoughts and experience are helpful rather than coming across as pedantic. And i look forward to Edwins insights and offerings.

With humility I would offer my take on Amazing Grace as a beautiful thread (by the way, tantra and kagyu – translate in part as thread , woven) to to what I think you are speaking of as awakening through devotion and the blessings of the Guru. In meeting one who has ‘crossed the ohter shore” we can see ourselves – our basic goodness and realize, or at least glimpse our Ultimate Nature. This is receiving the blessing of the Lineage through the Guru. For many, perhaps relatively for all of us, meeting and/or hearing the dharma from Venerable Mingyur Rinpoche was a blessing/grace and awakened our basic goodness in an irreversable manner.
I wish to offer a few qoutes, inexact but from memory of great teachers that illuminate basic goodness and awakening for sentient beings.
For many of us, if and when, our karma is ripe, this ineffable quality is awakened in simply meeting or seeing, and or hearing one who has awakened. “I want to be happy – but “I” am not a seperate being. I am simply another expression of awareness and “like myself all beings want to be happy and do not want suffering.” HH 14th Dalai Lama
“Whatever man does to the web of life he does to himself.” (Chief Joseph)

I’m sure many of us have heard this teaching, but through grace and blessings i heard it again, with fresh ears, on an old talk by Mingyur Rinpoche a few days ago. “This peice of paper represents your karma and klesha (apologies for the buddhist terminology – our confusion and the results of our actions). The Sun represents the teachings and blessings of the Buddha. You can leave the paper in the sunlight for days and it will not burn (exhaust and purify). But if you put a magnifying glass to illuminate the teachings and intensify the sunlight the paper will go up in flames. The magnnifying glass (vajra crystal) is the Guru and your devotion to the Guru lines everything up so you can benefit from the power of the blessings of the Buddha.”
Finally – Guru Devotion is a principle, the guru is a powerful embodiment and projection of our awakened state – an archetype for the fully realized self. Embodied awareness suffused with compassion and wisdom.
Tashi Delek, Namaste, Amen and Love
mark

Oh, and George Bush met the Dalai Lama conferring the Medal of Freedom, so did Mao and they did not awaken on the spot (but what a karmic seed they received!). The story of Ashoka is more inspiring as to the power of the Dharma.

Serge, Great comments. I’m not sure I totally understand what you are saying. Are you saying that basic goodness, or buddha nature is not enough, that we need something more, what you are calling amazing grace? If that is so, before I can comment further I would like to know what you mean by amazing grace. Could you please provide me with a definition or meaning for what you are calling amazing grace. Thanks, Edwin

Edwin, you know enough about “debates” in monasteries, so, i want to “dabate” with you.
when G Bush decided to make war with Irak, he was clearly for basic goodness, lovingkidness and compassion for himself and his friends. Hitler, Pinochet, you Edwin and the entire sentient beings do the same. OK.
Kissinger said in 1974 that USA will never accept not to have enough petrol for their country. For the benefit of american people ? may be.
The ignorance organize our politics. Confusion between wise and not wise.
Our economic system knows perfectly that we are interdependant. I need petrol, Irak has petrol, so it is interdependance… Yes ?
I don’t agree that it is enough to “observe” our lovingkindness for us to have the same for others. The Nazis considered Russians (25 millions killed), Jews (6 millions killed), Tzigans (too much killed), Homosexuals, and other categories of people who had mental illness, who were old, etc, not “human beings”.
Who is it ? number 75412 or 48526 …
It is easy to kill a number.
Like in “amazing grace” how can we see and not stay blind ? What does it mean ” i am blind” ? We will say “not to recognize the Buddha nature of all sentient beings”. Very theoretical !!!
One will “recognize these qualities”, and “sustain and develop that recognition”. It is not enough to ACT wisely.
To open our heart to others, to consider that this slave or insect is equal with us we need an “amazing grace”. It doesn’t come from reflection, it doesn’t come from observing the basic lovingkindness which is for ourself.
My experience says to me “it is the result of my observations of how happy are my Masters, how happy are all those who practize the Dharma in all lineages and the causes of this happyness”.
I had the same experience as you, meeting Mingyour Rinpoche after 12 years of Dharma practizes. What did change ? My daily life ! It was not only “refreshing” but more “deepening” encounter. How to ACT. It didn’t change anything about my motivation. My motivation is based on Tchenrezi practice, my first empowerment and today the only practice i do. It is my “amazing grace”. So, i feel Joy of living as a step to change my mind, not enough for the purpose, but without this step there is no progression in daily life. It doesn’t mean anyone has to become “buddhist” ! This “amazing grace” can come from observing a kid, a movie, etc… reactivating our Buddha nature which is the “fundamental” cause. Staline and Hitler loved kids, all the dictators love the little girl who comes to offer flowers… Can they receive an “amazing grace” ? Yes, sure ! It depends from their karma. This is what is lacking. We can observe our basic goodness during lifes ans lifes. Without “amazing grace” it will stay basic. I want to be happy will stay i want to be happy. We need a “cause” to change our mind from me-others to we.
Happy new year
Serge from France

Kathleen – I have just reread the threads in this conversation and wanted to address more directly something you said in one of your earlier posts. I have found a lot of people struggle with this way of understanding basic goodness, and lovingkindness and compassion. It implies that even if one does harmful things out of the desire to be happy that really these actions stem from basic goodness. This is what I understand Mingyur Rinpoche is saying and I have heard him questioned about this and he has confirmed it. This is very hard to accept. However, as I understand it we can act from our basic desire to be happy but still act in a very deluded and ignorant way. Even in a way that manifests as evil, and in doing so cause immense harm and suffering to ourselves and others. None the less the motivation for our actions stems from the desire to be happy. For this reason there is no substitute for wisdom, which no surprise is also part of our basic goodness. As is the case with awareness, lovingkindness and compassion that are all part of our basic goodness, wisdom too needs to be recognized. The beauty of the Joy of Living program is that it gives us the tools we need to begin to recognize these qualities and the skill to sustain and develop that recognition.

Jen & Jonelle. I’m glad you found my explanation helpful. I remember when Mingyur Rinpoche began to talk about loving kindness and compassion this way, connecting it to our desire to be happy and free from suffering. It was in 2010 after we had already recorded the introduction to Joy of Living 2 and we thought Rinpoche’s take on this subject was so different to anything we had previously heard, we asked him if he would re-record the intro to Joy of Living 2 so that we could capture this understanding. Of course Rinpoche graciously obliged.

For me this understanding was truly radical. It explained lovingkindness and compassion in a way that was do different from what I had previously understood and made so much sense. It was like something in my mind was rearranged. Thank you Rinpoche!

Mark. That’s right, basic goodness is another way of saying buddha nature. Basic goodness is a more simple term that is easier to relate to. It is easy to project a load of misconceptions when we begin to learn about buddha nature, but basic goodness seems to be something we can more easily relate to. Thanks to Trugpa Rinpoche and Mingyur Rinpoche for making the dharma more understandable to our modern mind.

This is a great discussion and i enjoy the insights and questioning.
I have heard and read many comments related to ‘basic goodness’ which seems likely first made mainstream by Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche as he taught Buddha nature to his westerns students. I believe VMR also uses it in the context equal to Buddha Nature and how we as westerners tend to have a default belief of ‘original sin’ which is really how we get and stay stuck as individuals and a society. The self-evident fact that we do desire happiness and do not want suffering for ourselves – combined with our understanding and dawning realization of interdependance – is recognition of our true basic ground.
It is my understanding that many traditional buddhist teachers had a difficult time understanding very common western issues such as depression, self- loathing etc. and “basic goodness” has evolved as a western dharmic terminology to help us relate to the timeless wisdom tradtion.
That being said – I seem to daily need all the reminders I can get!

Thank you for your explanation, Edwin. That’s a great New Year reflection!

Kind of like that story Mingyur Rinpoche told about when he first came to America and his friends took him swimming and at first he couldn’t swim and sunk but when he remembered he already knew how to swim then he did. I love how he illustrates these points with stories, it’s so helpful.

Ah, thank you. It sound so simple this way. I think I try too hard to complicate it when in actuality it’s already existing here inside me.

If we see it this way then loving kindness and compassion is not so much something that needs to be cultivated or developed, but rather something that needs to be recognized as inherent. Problem is we think we are not good enough and therefore have to do something to rectify the situation when all we need to do is take the time to recognize it.

That is true, but our desire to be happy and our desire to not suffer is present in every moment. Why do we want to be happy? Why do we not want to suffer? Because our basic goodness, which is who we truly are, does not want us to be harmed, and wants to care for ourselves. This is true for everyone. So if it is true for myself and I do not want to harm myself, and want to take care of my self, then why would I want to harm someone else, or not take care of someone else, if it is also true for them? Therefore our desire to be happy is the basis for lovingkindness and our desire to be free from suffering is compassion, both for ourselves and others. This is none other than our basic goodness.

Thank you Edwin, I like how you explained this. So it’s not evidence of our goodness as much as it is more about recognizing that our desire to avoid harm and suffering exists in everyone and that this connection we all have allows for development of compassion and loving kindness?

This is a great discussion and gets to a fundamental point in Mingyur Rinpoche’s Joy of Living Level 2 teachings.

I understand Rinpoche to mean that our desire to be happy stems from a deep inherent care for our well being. This deep care for our well being is the basis for lovingkindness. Similarly our desire to be free from suffering stems from a deep wish to not encounter harm. This is the basis for compassion. These two desires are inherent, are part of our basic goodness. If we can connect to these two basic desires in our own self, we begin to connect to lovingkindness and compassion for ourselves. By seeing that these two desires are present at all times in everyone, we can build an empathetic bridge with others and see that they are no different from ourselves. We all want to be happy, no one wants to suffer. This then makes it possible for us to develop lovingkindness and compassion for others. These natural, inherent qualities are part of our basic goodness. We just need to recognize them.

Of course there is no guarantee that when we act on our desire to be happy or free from suffering, that we will act wisely. However, because wisdom is also inherently part of our basic goodness, if we truly tune into and contemplate the consequences of our actions we will begin to act more wisely.

I took something different from reading that part of the book, I’d like to share it with you if you please. The meaning I got from it was that our desire for happiness is evidence of our basic goodness. So since we deeply desire to be happy, that means we all have inherent goodness deep inside. If we didn’t and then deep inside we desired something “evil” then that would be evidence that we are not inherently good.

Yes because that strong desire for happiness may cause us to grasp which brings more suffering. At the same time, that same desire for true happiness is what led me to practice meditation and the dharma. I think it really comes down to grasping brings us more suffering. Grasping at material things, thoughts, experiences. Meditation allows and gives us the opportunity to loosen this grasping and simply just be aware. I remember reading or hearing Mingyur Rinpoche say that “Happiness lies in awareness”.

I don’t believe that the desire to be happy makes us “good” but this desire is what connects all of us sentient beings. I think all of us simply just want to be happy and be free from suffering and there’s nothing wrong with that. However, Mingyur Rinpoche states that we go about life trying to find this happiness where it is not to be found or is only temporary.