Joy of Living Level 3 Discussion

Hello,

I’m french and I have attended the 3 JOL programs with the Tergar Paris (France) Group. I just see that an on line course will begin early november. I was wondering if I can join the course ? and if it’s the cas if I could pay the fee for peoples who have already done the JOL3 program. If you could let me know it would be wondeful.
I wih you a very good day, week, month 🙂
Best regards
Cheers from France

Bonjour Lucas, and thanks for being present whenever I post something in this topic.

First, I give you the context that probably prepared the experience.

In 2015 I attended 3 sessions of video conferences in Paris, called : “Mind training on the path of enlightment” and the teacher was Taï Situ Rinpoche.
I had several small flashes of “nature of mind understanding” (or so I thought) during the teachings. And ever since I have been thinking quite often about these teachings.
A few weeks ago I found out on the Palpung website that these teachings were still available on audio ! So I started to listen from the start the sessions of April 2015.
And I carried on my “as daily as possible” JoL 3 sessions of meditation.

During one of them there was a sort of collision between nature of Buddha and nature of my own mind and it was perfectly-absolutely clear they were one. I mean there was nothing intellectual about it. It was so obvious I could not believe it.
More : during the session the words used by Taï Situ Rinpoche about the qualities of the Buddha stroke me : non créé – non composé.
I am not sure I know how to translate this from French…
“Uncreated and not submitted to any kind of causes and effects combination” ? This is a bit academical but I can’t express this better in English.
And, suddenly, was a breathtaking awareness of Awareness.
Such a shock !!
What we read, what we are untiringly taught, was just there, I was living it !
It had always been there. Before “I” ever appears and there was no limit in time for it’s presence -for time had no longer any meaning. More : there was absolutely no NEED for an “I” !
In fact, there was no need for any emotion, mental expression of anything !
It was just spontaneously existing ! With or without “I” made no difference.

After a while I realised there was even no cruelty nor compassion in this Awareness.
It was a totally a non-human experience !!!

I began to get scared. If Awareness was such a total equanimity, anything that would emerge “inside” had no importance at all, as it was not Awareness itself but a reflect of phenomenon “inside” Awareness. Awareness was not altered in anyway by anything ever. All this I read and heard but I was LIVING it ! Understanding it !

But… where was compassion ?
We are taught such a great deal about its importance -and the experience I was “in” had no need for it !
I was still aware of Awareness, but it was scary to understand that compassion was a choice to make. You could as well chose to be cruel. Awareness could take both of them. Evil and good had the same essence.
I was so afraid that I tried to be aware of compassion in the experience.
Then of course, the experience of being aware of Awareness began to be dual and I found myself in full battle to retrieve Compassion. Which finally rised.
But it was so… human after the awareness of Awareness that I wondered : is-it necessary to train the mind to be compassionate because if it is not trained, and if the mind experiences only equanimity, every action is equal to another -no moral there, everything is possible in Just raw Awareness.
In a way I am glad to be back in what I call now relative awareness, but I am still totally shaken by the experience -and having the opportunity to express all of it is necessary, I guess, so that I can stop thinking of it.
The question is : what happened ?!

Bonjour.
In fact I would like to share a meditation’s experience with a mediator before sharing it in this topic -even if I am now the only person to write here 😉

It was quite shaky, then scary, and I had to wait it faded away a bit to be able to speak of it.

Thanks to any mediator passing by !

Bonjour Lucas,

I was not expecting an answer before a few weeks…
How glad I am I got one so quickly ! From a moderator !
It feels so good now that the link with Tergar that I broke is now restored, thanks to you !

I read several times what you wrote, and I kept thinking of every point of it all day long.
At least something in the streaming monkey-mind comment has changed : instead of being obsessed with despair, it is now puzzled and focused on the terms of your answer !!! What relief !

I have started last sunday the Vajrasattva practice again (my body allowed me to sit cross-legged again about 2 months ago). And there too I feel something has changed.
By the way, would it be possible for me to join a Vajrasattva discussion group on the forum, even if I did not follow a Tergar course ?
I requested and received the “lung” and explanations in november 2003, in France, at Vajradhara Ling, .

Thank you again… it is good to be back home 😉

The automatic french dictionary has had a strange way to replace words in my previous post !

suffira so thermiques = suffer just being human
emprises = emptiness (this inversion is, by the way is really funny !)

I really would love somebody to react to this post…

Anyway, may the practice always be with you all 😉
Olivia

Hi Every one !

It has been 3 years since I last left a post.
So I suppose my self has been leading my life since then, dragging me underwater, with too few gaps to surface and to be sure I was still a meditator.

Loss of inner energy, loss of confidence in life -when on earth did I stop marveling at this simple fact : being alive ?!- loss of confidence in my capacities at work.
And much worse : loss of enthusiasm and loss of confidence into practice.
I could not stand group practice any longer, could not stand the discussion after practice more likely.
Still can’t.

I have been angry 3 years long, angry at human stupidity, human nastiness, human madness, human blindness to the fact, being human, we all suffira so thermique is no need to add to the innate suffering of human nature !

I have been angry at the instructions of Joy of Living 2 : so silly, impossible to achieve as emotions grew bigger and bigger when I tried to practice !

I have been angry at myself, for I was perfectly aware of
this anger and its unending stream but not able to swim above it and not able keep looking at monkey-mind with a detached inner eye.
The more I I tried informal meditation, the more monkey-mind tightened its grip !
I have been angry at my body, this traitor succeeded in an incredible way to make the cross-legged posture unbearable !

From time to time, out of the blue, I had a glimpse of the wide sky and the unlimited potential of emprises, and just after I had this deep breath, monkey-mind grasped my ankles and dragged me once more underwater.

I have been a meditator for 20 years long ; december 10th, 2018, will be the 20th birthday of my involvement in practice, and I feel I learnt nothing, changed nothing.
They say I am a good-natured and humane kind of personn to others, that I always look for mutualiste agreement.
How is this possible ?! For whithin me so many armies of emotions are endlessly fighting !
They say I am like a river -how come that inside I am a volcano !?
Why did practice make me tremendously aware of all of this and that nevertheless it did not change me inside ???

@pietro

Good question!

You don’t have to worry about getting further away from a non-conceptual state of mind be practicing shamatha with object. Shamatha and vipashyana support each other. So, continue to practice with objects and as you do so, you can alternate with resting into open awareness, rest in open awareness for a while, and then again come back to the object you are working with.

Try that and see how it goes.

Hi @LUCAS,
thank you, it was very helpful.
I would need another advice: is it good to still practice shamata with object, or to progress towards (ideally) concept-free mind we should focus on objectless samatha and slowly abandon shamata with object ?

My confusion comes from this thought: if I recognize awareness while looking, for example, at a form or at an emotion, am I reinforcing in my mind the concept associated to the object of meditation? am I getting more far from non conceptual mind this way?
Or meditation with object still help the practices proposed in JOL3?

At the moment, for example meditation with emotion starts feeling quite good, now I can observe much better emotion and create a certain degree of separation, especially with strong emotions. Meditation with thoughts is still very difficult, I can observe thoughts only for few seconds and then I go daydreaming. But I go back to it periodically and very slowly it feels a bit better.

Any advice on how to continue the training and in which direction?

@pietro

“1. are the mental states of open awareness and timeless awareness the same? If not, what is the difference?”

Yes. Timeless awareness and open awareenss can be used as synonyms here.

“2. when during this practice I get distracted, is it better to repeat this kind of “dissection” process every time I realize that I was lost?”

When you find yourself being lost, you can do what you describe or you can also simply rest back into open awareness. Explore and find out what works for you.

Hello everyone,
I started practicing the exercises in the course “Awakening Wisdom”.
In particular, now I am working with mentally dividing time and space in smaller and smaller elementary parts until my mind is not able to grasp anymore the concepts.
At that point, I feel that my mind rests into open awareness. Is that the correct way to practice?
In particular, I have 2 questions:
1. are the mental states of open awareness and timeless awareness the same? If not, what is the difference?
2. when during this practice I get distracted, is it better to repeat this kind of “dissection” process every time I realize that I was lost?

Thank you!
Pietro

Hello everybody,
I would ask all of you how to work with the feeling of solitude that comes when I practice Love&compassion to Making Problems People-I know this happens because I Work with my brain and not with my heart but maybe somebody can teaches me how work with this
Sorry for my English!!!

Hi Olivia ( @Olivia),

Well, there may be some other Patrick at Tergar Paris. For the time being, I could attend only to the sessions with Kenpo Kunga.
About the formal practice (20 minutes minimum per day), I do it because of the neuroplasticity of the brain. Why not do it if it’s working?

Dropping the expectations, pushing the reset button at the beginning and during the meditation is clearly fundamental. For instance, it has been months that I have tried to realize emptiness through the negative emotions. Finally I got it this week: I am so happy!! I realized that I expected to transform the emotions, to do something to them (like in level 2 where you transform them into compassion).
I expected them to disappear in emptiness. I was so into it that I couldn’t hear the repeated instructions of “BE WITH THE EMOTION”. Finally, dropping my willingness to act on it, I found that the negative emotion is still there but I see its true nature: emptiness. I don’t try to change it at all. And as a consequence it has lost its grasping (and very painful) power. Then I am OK with this emotion (doesn’t really matter anymore).

In current life, I would say whether I have expectations or not doesn’t really matter. The important is to remember what they are. Well, basically some self-centered creations of the mind which have no real existence. If I am caught into them, instead of being deceived why not laugh at them? I forgot again: it is a good opportunity to look through them and realize their emptiness…

Now, I am intrigued by this idea of letting go when relating with others. Trust and go with the flow: very interesting…

Hi @Olivia,

It’s lovely to hear that you’ve been able to touch into love and compassion like that – in your practice and in your concern for people in Syria and elsewhere. Somewhere, Mingyur Rinpoche says how fear makes you small and tight, while love and compassion makes you big, open and connected.

It sounds like you’re an action girl who has also learnt how to trust stillness and letting go. That’s bringing the practice into your life in a real and powerful way. I’m impressed!

I’m more often guilty of control-freak behaviour, especially in my work. Reading your post makes me think about how trust and flow are intimately connected to letting go of the ego. I’ll take your post as an inspiration for meditation and daily life this month. Merci!

Hi Michael,
Hi Patrick, (au fait, es-tu LE Patrick qui suit régulièrement les sessions de Tergar Paris, rue Montorgueil ?)
Hi everyone !

It is incredible how powerfull life is ! How quickly fear fades away, only three weeks after what happened in Paris.

By the way, I felt exactly as Patrick said : even when I was in shock, I thought of syrian people in Syria too, and as you probably experimented once : when you do “love and compassion” practice, you start with some people near and dear to you and can’t help going on with every suffering people all over the world untill there is no more individuality (?) but something like a wide sphere of radiant presence and energy.

I am amazed by your determination, Michael and Patrick, to follow the program of a meditation course !
I can’t do that anymore -kind of developping an allergy to such programmed studies I am affraid ;-).

But in some way I am certainly practicing non formal meditation, for I have had quite a surprise these last weeks.

I am an “action” kind of girl : not patient (but very determinate though), always trying to make things and event move, resting my mind is quite a challenge for a restless “thinker” like me.
How comes that I have been able to simply, and only, impulse an action that do matter to me (obligation to look for a new society to workin) and after that, to let go and observe ?!

For once in my life, I did not try to interfeer, to make things go as I wanted them too : I just gave a direction to the action and made people involved to be in touch with each other and waited for a conclusion !
Whitout expectation.

It was incredible, after that, to see the circumstances change day by day, people I had never imagined would be part of the search of a new society for me to work in getting involved too…
All I was doing was wait and watch !

How very, very, very strange !

Did this ever happened to you ?

Hi Patrick (@etzanas)
> seems like you’re a little bit too tight sometimes? I think to be relaxed is very important

Yes definitely – good comment! It’s the balance that Mingyur Rinpoche talks about: not too loose, not too tight. Do you find sometimes in your practice that when you first begin, just in those first few seconds, non-conceptual awareness is effortlessly and vividly present? When that’s been the case for me and I’m able to gently acknowledge and appreciate it, then it remains, but if I try to grasp it (looking for a result as you say) then it goes “pop” 🙂 I’ve also noticed recently that informal practice through the day often feels deeper than formal practice.

When insight meditation on the nature of self seems blocked by tightness and effort, I find the lesson from week 6, awareness of mind listening to sound, very helpful. It often goes:

Listening to sound – hearing becomes vivid while thoughts and other senses fade.

Becoming aware of mind listening to sound – spacious sense of mind replaces small tight sense of self.

Becoming aware of the space in which sound, mind and listening occur – harder to describe but fluid and a sense of interdependence.

Difficult emotions and ego – yes, they are always intertwined aren’t they? I like your comment about using the strength of an emotion such as anger to bring ego into focus and find the emptiness within it.

I plan to spend this month on interdependence. I love the week 4 lesson with the orange and the kiwi fruit because it brings together insights about the nature of self and about relationship to others. So being both less ego-bound and more sensitive and connected to other people and your environment.

The video message from Mingyur Rinpoche is wonderful isn’t it?

All the best for your practice this month.

Hi Michael ( @slowmo) and everyone!

Lucky you: summer in Australia… Here in France, we are really entering the winter.
About your note on self and effort: seems like you’re a little bit too tight sometimes? I think to be relaxed is very important. It is more difficult for western people because of our education (very result oriented). As a tip, I don’t start insight meditation before I feel my mind is calmed enough with a Shamata meditation but not too much. It is like a game of balance.
Using body as a support at the beginning is also working very well to lose faster the noise of thoughts. Meditating after a jogging is also very interesting.

About the practice, I am focusing now daily on transforming negative emotions into realization of emptiness. I have been doing this for some time and it is not really working as well as I think it would. I found methods of level 1 and level 2 worked directly very well at the first time but with this one, I have much more difficulties.
Usually I take a past problem, like a conflict. When I experience a negative emotion during the day I try to transform it directly. I noticed when it is fresh, it is full of energy and tension and more difficult to process. Anyway the cool part is that if I start to look for the root of this emotion, the ego is never very far. For instance this morning, I realized that I have the notion of MY territory and when someone crossed the limits, I become very angry or uncomfortable. Then it is an opportunity to back to the week 4 about realization of emptiness of the ego and go deeper in this. And then again go back to the negative emotion to realize how the idea of ego was boosting it.

About emptiness, I study it now by pieces. I try to understand some passage in “Contemplating Reality” from Andy Karr. I find certain concepts very helpful for the meditation.
For next month, I plan to spend it between the negative emotion transformation and study of emptiness with the book. Of course, I amazed by the adventures of Mingyur Rinpoche. Especially when he talks about being one with the environment and his difficulties at the beginning. It made me think about duality: being able to live without making any difference between you and your surroundings, without fear…

Hi Patrick (@etzanas), Bill ( @bfulton) and everyone.. How has your practice been going ? As we’re now in a new month (and officially the first day of summer here in Australia) here are some thoughts about the review of the week 3 teachings during November.

Self and effort: I’ve realized how often there is subtle, and not so subtle, effort in my practice to get to some desired state or suppress unwanted thoughts and feelings. I think such effort is just an expression of self / ego. I don’t know if I’m doing it more or am just more tuned in to it more. Sometimes, when I’ve forgotten to make such an effort or have even been day-dreaming a bit, a vivid, spacious sense of awareness free from self has appeared spontaneously.

Anger: several times last month I found myself losing my temper and being overwhelmed by the rush of anger that burst out. I think the lesson is that it’s all too easy to hid from petty feelings and negativity in meditation but unless you fully recognize them they will always come back. I think recognize here means let them be just feelings and thoughts rather than self.

The tragedies and injustices of the world have weighed heavily this month and frequently been overwhelming. The practice of touching into awareness and peace has seemed more important but also more difficult.

I guess I think meditation practice should open us to the troubles and pain of the world, and help us to engage usefully when we can and without becoming burnt out. I think this is what Mingyur Rinpoche teaches.

Even if I am french, I have been meditating about equanimity (session 2). Those events have made me realize that there is right now a serious war in Syria and a lot of syrian people suffering…

It is so good of you to write about your thoughts and feelings @Olivia and very moving to read them.

It seems very natural to extend a deeply felt wish that those who have suffered so much in these terrible events can find comfort, support and healing. You can see your tonglen practice like that.

Can these events be a support for your meditation ? I think definitely yes. It is not selfish to do that nor just wanting to feel better. It is having the courage to accept the terrible things that have been done and the great suffering caused, accept all of your feelings, and hold all of that in the depth and compassion of your true nature. It helps you and helps everyone around you. It keeps hope and love alive at a time when they are most needed. That you can see the young men who did these terrible things as victims too is surely a sign of your open heart. I don’t think that’s madness but rather the only way to peace.

Thanks, Michael, for your thoughts and words about Paris.

As you may know, I am french and Paris is where I have been living for years, studied and where I do work.
Here, in Paris, we are still shaken and frozen by horror -but we will not let fear destroy liberty and free democratie !

Through these events I just do not know how to use meditation and transform what just happened into a meditation support. Of course, I did “give love and take suffering” practice (Tong Len practice) -but how useful is “my” meditation for these people who have lost life or dear ones or will have to live crippled ?

I am, for the time being, too stunned (?) to feel hatred for the hiding cowards behind those who were sent to certain death, I can even feel sorry for those kamikaze whose minds was manipulated -by the way, being able to feel sorry for murderers, is it compassion or madness ?!

I wonder, really do, how, as a meditator, use and transform this horror into something else…

That’s a lovely quote Bill ( @bfulton). I’ve been keeping it in mind for the last few days when I sit to meditate.

It sounds like your retreat was really good for you Patrick (@etzanas). I’m sure the benefit of that extended, stable experience of stillness will stay with you as it did with me. Even when the chatter of everyday living and mental habits reasserts itself, you’ll know that the deeper reality of stillness and ease is just underneath.

In the midst of the terrible news of violence and suffering in Paris, I think nurturing stillness and peace in ourselves is the path to responding with compassion and whatever useful action is open to us rather than being overtaken by despair or nihilism.

Hi Bill ( @bfulton),

Impermanence in life: up and down… I am glad that you are on the upside right now! Time to build some strength to be prepared before the next downside.
Please keep posting and sharing your learnings and experiences so we can all learn from it. Maybe you can try to get some of your friends to join us on this forum.

About the mini-retreat at home ( @slowmo):
– Seemed weird at the beginning to practice so many hours, but it helped a lot for the clarity and the general feeling of calm of the mind (much more stable).
– The challenge was also a physical one, to be seated for so long. The walking meditation was of great help for the legs and gave some oxygen to the body.
– I found that when it was becoming boring or tiring, a love and compassion meditation was very efficient to get some energy back.

The most relevant discovery during this mini-retreat was about the spaciousness of awareness:
I used this very simple audio from Mingyur Rinpoche: “A Guided Meditation on the Body, Space, and Awareness”
https://learning.tergar.org/2012/08/19/guided-meditation-on-space-and-open-awareness/

It worked very well. I extended awareness in the space first horizontally and other times like a sphere (including the earth beneath). This is easier to do than before I guess because of the impact of the level 3 meditations about ego.

Afterward, I added an option but I have no idea whether it is recommended to do it:
– Start the same meditation but before to extend the awareness, do some level 2 “love and compassion, basic goodness about yourself” meditation to intensify the level of energy.
– Once your feel the energy and your heart beating strongly: extend the awareness. “Automatically” the energy of love and compassion extend on the same time, limitless…

Wanted to add. This is from a JOL class booklet:
​”Whatever practice you’re engaged in, it is important to make your meditation very personal and immediate.
It should feel alive for you.”
Mingyur Rinpoche

We’ve had chaos in our lives for the past 3 years (my spouse/best friend and I) related to her father’s illness. Basically, she’s been here less than half the time and the rest 500 miles away. I really did rely on the Tergar community for the teachings and friends. During some of these periods my practice was erratic — that’s why I loved the JOL classes… kept me on track!
Her father died about two weeks ago to everyone’s relief, his most especially. Long process.
Now that I’m getting back on track, I’m easing in with material from JOL 2 and 3. No set syllabus yet. They dovetail beautifully. Impermanence and emptiness and compassion for self, other, all beings? It falls together in a most natural way. I really don’t know how to describe it. It is strongly felt.
Two purchases I recommend: The JOL 3 DVD and JOL 2 CD set. Both recorded live in Bodhgaya, with more energy and interplay. You won’t regret the purchase!
Gratitude for all community…

I like this idea very much Michael ( @slowmo): analytical meditation dissolves into open awareness. It is true if you listen to the audios week 3 and 4, that’s the way they conclude.
I think it would be interesting to observe how the analytical process evolves once you lose the grasping to the concepts.

Ok, I’m switching gear with this practice: the next 3 days I am going to make a mini-retreat at home (at least 6 hours of meditation per day). I will tell you how it went (I read your post about it last year, quite an experience).

Hi Patrick (@etzanas)

> Come on, time doesn’t exist

Ah – a buddhist joke…

You’ve said exactly what I had in mind. Tim told me once that eventually we move from deliberate analytical meditation to just meditation. I didn’t really understand what he meant, but now I think it’s just as you put it – in open awareness boundaries soften, including the (imagined) boundary between the self and all else. So there’s not really a boundary between open and insight meditation either.

Say you are listening to sound or feeling sensations of your body or just being generally open… then thoughts, judgements and the sense of “I” arise. You just notice them with the insight that they too are experiences like the sounds and physical sensations.

I live near a busy road corner. If my mind is occupied with psycho-babble at the start of formal practice (it almost always is) I try to let the thoughts be like the traffic noise – just passing experiences. Sometimes they pop straight away to leave quietness. Other times they continue but they no longer have the meaning or personal identification normally attached to thoughts. They are no longer “me”. Then it seems like openness is not separate from insight at all.

Michael ( @slowmo),

Come on, time doesn’t exist but I can’t wait to get your take about open awareness vs. insight meditation.

What I have observed is to make the insight meditation more meaningful, I need a good level of concentration. So I do the open awareness as long as my mind is not calm before starting the insight meditation. And some days, according to the daily events it can take a lot of time.

I am also very attracted to the open awareness practice because of the non-dual, non-conceptual state. And maybe when you get attracted toward this state and you think about it, naturally the attachment to the “self” soften.

Hi Patrick (@etzanas),

It sounds like all is going very well with you too – that’s wonderful.

On open versus insight meditation – let’s make a point to talk about that towards the end of this month, especially about how it relates to softening attachment to the “self”. I think that will be interesting.

All the best for week/month 3 !

Hi Michael ( @slowmo),

I am really happy you got a great month! Maybe some of the energy from Mingyur Rinpoche is passing through.

About segmenting the teachings per week:
I don’t find that it is possible to really separate or not practicing the whole of what we have learnt. Plus, for instance in week 4, there is a lot about impermanence. Also, when I get some really negative emotions, I don’t miss the opportunity to practice week 5. On the same time, I think that focusing on one part of the material at the time is very productive. If I start to think about the whole level 3, I am just overwhelmed!
Also in my practice, I mix always with some level 2. I can’t do a lot of meditation without feeling the need to practice also some love and compassion. And by the way, I can’t wait to finish level 3 to re-start level 2 study with a new perspective.

I am learning from your posts:
About the self-talk: I realized that I was observing it with awareness only. When you wrote about seeing emptiness beyond self-talk, this is a new step from me. I realize emptiness during the formal practice but not at all during everyday life. So this is a great breakthrough for me, going beyond the thoughts to realize emptiness.
About what you just wrote on impermanence: I was not aware of it but it is true that the concept has also a negative touch for me. Like it is a way to fight against the hard reality of time passing and changes. This gives me a new perspective to welcome and stay open to impermanence, not taking it only as an antidote.
I liked also your warning about not putting ego into the practice. Your post let me think about the risk that the practice could reinforce my ego in a certain way (something like: cool, I am better at meditation than before… Or the more I practice, the better I am).

As some insight about impermanence, I would say the more I realize the concept of impermanence, the less room I give to the past in my life and thoughts. In this way, I consume a lot less internal energy.

Ok, let’s go for “week 3”. I want to put more method and rigor in the practice. Lately, I am doing a lot of open meditation and not much insight meditation. The more I am taken by external matters like work, the more time it takes only to calm the mind.

Hi Patrick (@etzanas), Bill (@wafulton) and everyone,

October, the month of impermanence, is nearly at an end 🙂 Looking back on my practice and review of the course this month, it seems to have been a mix of week 2 and week 3 material much as you said you were following Patrick.

My feeling for impermanence has shifted. When I did the level 3 course last year I understood impermanence in terms of inevitable decay and loss – something that was important to accept but, like bad tasting medicine, not fun. Now, it feels more about becoming unstuck, clearing out clutter, making space for playfulness, creativity and action. The term “impermanence” seems too cumbersome for the feeling of it but since Rinpoche later tells us “no permanence, no impermanence !” what we call it probably doesn’t matter.

A couple of other thoughts from this month…

Impermanence seems part of being more awake – not living each day in a state of dull familiarity, not waiting for the end of the day or the end of the week. Somehow that dullness and those “waiting for” thoughts involve permanence – things are always the same, work is always boring, the news is always bad, life is always difficult.

For the last month or so I’ve had one of the most enjoyable and productive work periods that I can recall. This follows a lengthy period of mediocre performance (in my own estimation). Nothing about the work I’m doing has changed and I wasn’t aware of trying to do it differently, but it feels like some anchor(s) that I was dragging around for a long time have been jettisoned.

Impermanence and permanence are intimately bound up with time and self. The way we stepped through the teachings in the course was great, but reviewing the teachings now it doesn’t feel natural to have hard boundaries between the weekly topics. Perhaps just use them as a different emphasis or view each month ? What do you think ?

PS. Patrick (@etzanas) – I ranted about running so much that I forgot to say, when you compare your own practice to someone like Matthieu Ricard (who is wonderful and inspiring) keep in mind that he is not a parent, nor is he engaged in employment or other aspects of life in the same way that you are. Your path is different to that of a monk, but not less important.

Hi Patrick (@etzanas),

I like your honesty ! I also find spending the whole month just on impermanence, as it was taught in week 2, to be a bit too narrow. That said, the impermanence of everyday experience is such a core teaching, so I want to work with it, but as more of a loose focus this month. Also, a big life challenge appeared recently which has been occupying my attention and giving rise to very strong thoughts and emotions. It seems natural and unavoidable to work with that. So basically I’ve been working with whatever comes up but making a point of of noticing the fluidity and transience in it all, and seeing how that takes the power out of some things (worry, assumptions, obsessive thoughts) while giving more power to others (sense of being part of things, ease, naturalness). Some days this feels just right while on others I feel all at sea and uncertain about everything.

Running is an interesting metaphor for practice and goals. I’ve done a lot of distance running (marathons and ultras) so let me respond in kind… At one extreme running can be driven entirely by targets: distances, personal best times, resting heart rate etc etc. You meet lots of runners who constantly obsess about targets and measures and (this is just my very opinionated observation) it often goes along with a strong and brittle ego. At the other extreme there is running for the sheer joy of it. Then there is the fertile middle ground between these extremes: settings goals and noticing progress towards them, but at the same time being relaxed about them and running mostly for the deep joy of each step, even the steps that hurt.

I can’t run at the moment. I hope I will again but that might not happen. When I think about running, the delight of particular moments is very bright and feel like blessings still glowing in my life. Things like best race times or weekly training distances mean nothing at all.

Definitely agree with your observation about self-talk. Mine is nothing but ego: immature, defensive, selfish… sigh. But have you tried using it as a link to emptiness in daily life ? Something that has been working for me is if you notice yourself doing self-talk, gently turn that noticing into an interested or amused observing. Usually I find the self-talk goes “pop” and there is emptiness, spaciousness and relief – sometimes for a brief moment, sometimes more stable. Let me know what you find.

Bill ( @bfulton) and everyone – as Patrick says, please join in the discussion !

Hi Michael ( @slowmo),

Well, reporting about Week 2 (about impermanence). I must say I am not sticking to the plan: I find it just too boring to spend one full month on impermanence with always the same meditation. So I am doing both week 2 and 3 on the same time.

I don’t know if there is anything wrong with that but I am starting to take this practice a little bit like running. At the beginning, you start with no breath and endurance and then you improve your performance. I would like to reach the 1 hour session meditation, but usually at 30 minutes I have enough. Still I have the feeling that like in running, you need to practice a longer time to really burn the fat and build resistance…
I am following Matthieux Ricard who I find very close to YMR teachings. He is meditating 5 hours per day! I find also, the more you meditate, the less you need to sleep because it is resting.
Instead of a mala, I use also a hand held counter and on average I am at 7 times per day. YMR said we should be around 30 times. But as of today, 3 times per hour is my maximum. I don’t know if there is a trick to accelerate the pace.

About week 3, I am trying to get really comfortable with those concepts of relative/absolute reality… About emptiness, I find it amazing how simple it is to experience it during meditation and how difficult it is to realize it in daily life.
Another insight is about self-talk: when in my head I talk to someone or he answers to me: it’s all about reinforcing the ego. Just empty brain activity.

So let me know what’s going on with you and your practice,
Patrick

– Of course Bill or anybody else is more than welcome to participate to this exchange about practicing level3

Interesting experience: sitting in a parked car, imagining what I see is in a mirror. And I shift my gaze to the rear-view mirror…
And it IS an experience. For a few moments, I don’t know what’s “real.”Definitely loosens my grip on material reality!

Hi Michael ( @slowmo), Great to hear from you!

Amazing to spend a full month on perceptions. I find this practice so important and rich that I plan each time I have a strong irritation/suffering during the day, to analyse my perceptions in order to find where is the grasping (and develop some wisdom).

I fully agree on your comment about judgments and not create more monkey activities. I have tried to understand what they are about as they are such a big part of perception. I have also added the expectations issue: often if my expectations are not met, then I judge the situation or the person.
I have tried an advice from a zen blogger: drop you your judgments and expectations! So now, when I meet someone or watch people I keep the awareness on this. Clearly the idea is not to stop the concepts but to be aware. The results: it gives me a great feeling of freedom and openess. I don’t have to think how this person or the situation should be! (it is useless anyway).
Another great advice: the other person or the situation is NEVER the problem! (as we create the problem with our mind and reaction). It is all about accepting the situation which doesn’t mean to do nothing but to answer appropriately.

I have the same experience that the mirror practice is not the same than at the beginning. For my part: I get the feeling that the awareness is much “closer” to the reflections. Like the awareness is at the same time inside and outside of my body. Interesting to notice that awareness doesn’t stop somewhere.

Ok, let’s go for the week 2 material!
Patrick

Sorry – the unfinished sentence in that last post was meant to say:
…his point about contemplation during everyday life being so important as a companion to meditation.

Hi Patrick (@etzanas),

Sorry for this late response (I’m @slowmo rather than @ Michael).

It sounds like you’ve had a very active and productive time over the last few weeks. Great !

Like you, I find judgement a pretty fertile source of insight. When I tune into it I realize how it occupies so much of my mental activity. But also like you, the article about judgement didn’t quite speak to me. I suspect dissecting and working with judgement over many years like that would just lead to even more insular self-obsession in my case, although I’m sure it’s very beneficial for some. But just noticing such thoughts and emotions and allowing them to come and go without being ruled by them – that seems less fraught, more natural and more like what I understood from JOL level 3.

I enjoyed Tim’s talk very much, especially the focus on relationships and connecting with others, and also his point about contemplation during everyday life being so

I found it very worthwhile spending September reviewing the week 1 course material. However, I did notice teachings from the later weeks often crept in during practice. For instance, meditating on a problem or difficult situation in terms of my perceptions would sometimes naturally move into dealing with a strong emotion or seeing aspects of the self as fluid or disparate.

I’ve also noticed a subtle change in the mirror experience – or perhaps it’s a different kind of experience, I don’t know. Several times recently while out walking, my thinking mind has suddenly become still and the view of the world seems to snap into a more vivid focus. It’s hard to describe but very affecting.

Looking forward to hearing how you go this month with the week 2 material.

Michael

Hi Michael ( @Michael),

Practicing level 3:
Well, I am still on Week 1 about perceptions. I am spending an awful lot of of time on the material. I go between meditation and understanding the concepts within the books. It is amazing how once I start to have the experiences, the “Joyful Wisdom” book takes a different meaning. Like I start to get it.

I read also “Contemplating Reality” from Andy Karr and I found it interesting because it details different levels of explanation of the same reality. It introduces also to the practice of contemplation.

About judgment:
I am not completely convinced by the text below but I found that the idea that judgment is a reactive answer very important. Anyway I find that judgment (mainly about others and situations) are a big part of my perceptions.
Transforming the Judgmental Mind, Donald Rothberg (2009)
http://www.spiritrock.org/document.doc?id=1252

Compassion is the antidote for judgment. Maybe you have already heard this Tergar audio from Tim on the subject. I found it’s the best talk on the subject I know, especially with this idea of warmth (internal and toward others).
https://learning.tergar.org/2013/01/28/a-steady-heart-in-turbulent-times/

There are things I have started to get:
– like everything we experience is transmitted through our mind, it is like watching a huge TV screen. You are taken by the action, get the emotions but those images are in fact just fabricated images by the mind.
– to escape from suffering, it’s about a shift of perspective. Take some distance using awareness and just observe the action. I think that as long as I don’t think I am part of the movie produced by my mind, there is no grasping.

On the other side, I have spent some effort to let it go, to dissipate the ego. But I didn’t get much result. It took me some time to realize that it was not about how to make this ego disappear (as it is useful) but how not to cling to this idea.
One exercise I find interesting is to never say My car, my money… so with this effort I remember that I am not attached to those objects. They have their own reality and are impermanent.

Cheers,
Patrick

Hi Olivia ( @olivia),

That sounds wonderful ! I’m very happy for you.

I love Mingyur Rinpoche’s phrase: “to cut through problems we need problems”. It tells me that whenever I feel lost in doubts, fears or just fog I can turn to those feelings like an interesting obstacle course leading to a new view. Of course, I often bumble around in the foothills for a long time first 🙂

Best wishes from Australia.

Hi Michael !

You really did some good : as soon as I read your post, knowing that you live in Australia, in the south hemisphere, a sensation of space I missed for several months came back at once !

Awareness of space too. And I was able, for one hour on the cushion, to fill all this space with the four “incommensurables” (may all sentient beeings know happiness… and so on) and to carry on another practice I vowed to finish before Mingyur Rimpoche’s return among us.

Waow ! I had no idea we could help each other that way -I mean : intellectually, of course, I knew, but this was different.

Thanks, Michael.

Hi Olivia ( @olivia),

Firstly, apologies for this very late reply to your message which I’ve only just seen.

Like you, I’ve also find solo practice can be challenging and confess I’ve envied those folk who have a practice group to attend. I’m sure group sessions must be helpful for remaining motivated and tuned in. On the other hand, I think solo practice has its advantages too, or at least it’s possible to see it that way.

I’m generally very lazy and disorganized, but I’ve found that if you can establish a daily practice, even if some days it’s a bit short or feels superficial, after a while it becomes self-reinforcing – just something you do. Also, solo practice more or less forces your meditation to be closely connected to the rest of your life. I’ve found it’s helped me regularly think about why I’m doing it, whereas I suspect I could find it easier to just go through the motions in a group setting.

Happy to keep in touch, either here or via messages. Perhaps we can help motivate each other !

I must say I am quite impressed with your “solo practice”, Michael : for I know practicing alone is sometimes so… let say it :so tiresome, boring etc.

In the other hand, practicing in group is sometimes… getting on someone nerves !

But for the time being, Fellows Meditator, I am a “solo non-practitionner” and I’d be happy to have some support from someone who has already been through those long period of time whithout motivation !
I mean : even when you take a quick look at your cushion, you feel strongly it is calling for you -but you escape as if it was going to bite !
And sometimes, you just think that meditation is a nonsense, a silly thing to do (why on earth playing a video game would not be also meditation, huh ?!).
Sometimes, the acrobat is just fed up with the trapeze and sits down, wondering if she should not jump into the lava of the vulcano ! (this refers to a previous post in 2014, or 2013, in JoL3 group).

How to cope (deal ?) with those moments of “meditation is another wrong path for me”, “I am to tired with new responsabilities and work to even rest my mind on anything else than beeing tired and even resting my mind is exhausting !” ?

Ok, maybe I just need hollydays -from work AND from meditation….. ? 🙂

Hi Etienne ( @etienne440)

Thanks for your post – it’s really good to hear from you too. Great that you did your retreat ! I had a big slump in mood a few days after posting about mine – lots of negative thoughts for a week or two. Not much fun but not a surprise. Did you find that at all ?

Your thoughts about the importance of shamata in your practice ring very true. I definitely notice that when I’ve put all the emphasis on analytical meditation, out of impatience for progress or frustration with something, it goes nowhere useful. Watching the JOL3 videos again helped – Rinpoche had the metaphor of two wings of a bird: wisdom plus awareness. I’ve also pestered Tim with questions and his advice has been a big help.

All the best to you and for your practice.

Hi Michael! ( @slowmo)

It is really great to hear about your practice and retreat. For my part, I did a 2-days retreat at home last fall. I did not have any significant insight, but it made me realize that I had neglected the “shamata” aspect and that my analysis of reality was sometimes a mindless chatter. It did give me some momentum to carry the practice even more in daily life.
May we continue to practice diligently these profound and liberating teachings. They can be quite exhausting, but this is precisely what allows the instruction “rest your mind as it is” to take more and more deeper levels of meaning.

I’ve just completed the two day retreat for level 3 after doing the online course with Tim this June and July. This was my first experience of meditation for such an extended period and, as the course notes predicted, I found the notion very daunting beforehand. The night before was sleepless. Not having been to a Tergar retreat (I’m in Sydney, Australia) I wasn’t sure if there was a best way to structure the two days and somehow didn’t think to ask. I ended up breaking each day into 45-60 minute blocks focussing on different aspects of the teachings. It was a solo practice, at home.

So how was it ? Amazing !!! Plenty of ups and downs of course. Frequently the aches and pains in my knees and back eclipsed any more transcendent thoughts. But there were also an extraordinary glimpse of a happiness so deep that it made me teary, many insights about the nature of self and my limiting thoughts and perceptions, and an open spaciousness which is still very noticeable the day after. Following Mingyur Rinpoche’s advice in the course lectures I am doing my best not to try to hang on to these experiences.

I’d be very interested to hear from others about your level 3 retreats. How did you approach it, whether alone or in a group, and what did you find ?

Grateful thanks to Mingyur Rinpoche and all at Tergar for the Joy of Living teachings.

I was wondering if anyone had any insight (pun conditional) about the distinction between causes and conditions. I’m curious and confused. Why is there any distinction at all between a cause and condition, and how do we determine what the cause is vs. what the conditions are?

For example, I’ve heard an illustration of this in terms of a tree. The cause is the seed, the conditions are sunlight, water, and nutrients in the soil. But why should we consider the cause to be more important the conditions? That almost feels like a sly introduction of a “self” in some sense; we identify the tree with the seed more than the sunlight or water, as if the tree is basically an older seed and thus has some “tree essence”. Why aren’t these factors equally causes or equally conditions?

Curious to hear your thoughts…

Hi @Olivia

Thanks for the translation into English for us monolingual folks.

I just want to respond to your request at the end, the part about feeling lonely in these experiences and wondering if other meditators experience anything similar. For me, the answer is yes! Once the monkey mind has a chance to rest for a while and begins to loosen it’s grip on constantly conceptualizing everything it can get it’s hands on, there is an opportunity for a deeper clarity to arise and I sometimes find myself briefly ‘dropping back’ into past experiences. It’s more of a felt sense than thought-oriented; a kind of body awareness. I suspect this is an effect from the panoramic view of open awareness practice. Things can just naturally come up because there is space available for them to arise.

Also, when dropping in the analytical reflections while in this type of awareness can certainly be unsettling. I suppose it’s because the experience of the reflection is more direct than the normal cognitive thinking we usually engage in.

I really like your metaphors of the volcano on a cushion and the trapeze artist. It got me thinking that perhaps I’m more of an ‘underwater volcano’ as I tend toward sinking!

This is the english (rough) translation of the french message I posted yesterday…

You know what ? I do feel a bit funny !

The more I practice Joy of Living level 3 meditations, the more I discover I am now experiencing with full awareness intuitions I had when I was 14 years old ! The most vivid of these intuitions happened as I was attending a mathematics exhibition at the “Palais de la Découverte” (a sciences gallery) in Paris.
Suddenly “something went clear” and far beyond mathematics as I was looking at the Benoît Mandelbrot’s “fractals” he had conceptualized a few years before.
How strange it is to experience similar flashes now…

What a brawl with Crazy-Monkey-Mind, though !

I am very often petrified as I am experiencing : I must keep telling then, whatever the experience is, especially during “deconstructing the self” and “meditation on interdependance”, that Awareness will remain -but Crazy Monkey Mind is so scared…

Those are experiences utterly unsettling : they modify so profoundly (?) the comprehension one has of himself, and modify the perception of phaenomenon, that being on the cushion is like sitting up on a volcano !
And many readings I made without understanding them are now making sense.

To make a long story short : it seems to me that I am a trapeze acrobat each time I am sitting on the cushion, ready to jump in mid-air without knowing if Awareness will really catch me at the crucial time !

I feel a bit lonely too with all this, and I would appreciate to be a bit relieved : do those kind of things happen to you too, fellows meditators ?

Je me sens de plus en plus bizarre, moi !
Car plus je pratique JoL 3, plus je constate que des “ressentis” dont j’ai eu des intuitions quand j’avais 14 ans (spécialement lors d’une exposition sur les mathématiques, au Grand Palais, grâce aux fractales de Benoït Mandelbrot) je suis maintenant en train de les expérimenter en pleine conscience…

Mais quelle bagarre avec le singe-fou !

De plus en plus souvent, je suis vraiment pétrifiée d’effroi par ce que j’entrevois dans l’expérimentation ; je dois me répéter, alors, que, quoi que j’expérimente, particulièrement lors de la déconstruction du soi et de l’interdépendance, la Conscience reste.
Ce sont des expériences complètement déstabilisantes, qui modifient complètement la compréhension de soi et des phénomènes durant la méditation. Et des tas de choses que j’avais lues sans rien y comprendre prennent maintenant du sens…

En bref, j’ai l’impression d’être un voltigeur au trapèze chaque fois que je m’assieds sur mon coussin, et de me jeter dans le vide sans trop savoir si la Conscience va vraiment me rattrapper au moment où je crois tomber 🙂

J’aimerais bien être un peu rassurée : cela vous arrive-t-il aussi…?

I’m very glad I found this discussion group. Did not know we had it

Andrew: Thoughts as dreams! That IS to weird to think about. Haha.

Jonathan: Thank you for reminding me that this stuff is easy! I’ve been trying too hard, making it harder than it is by applying too much effort.

Olivia: I get a lot more off the cushion than on. On the cushion, it’s usually boring or relaxing or just crowded with thoughts. I don’t feel thrilled. I feel like I’m doing work, or I feel calm, or I feel exhausted, or the Crazy Monkey Mind is constantly inquiring, “Are we done yet? Are we done yet.” I even think, ” am I just bad at this?” BUT, then, off the cushion, I react differently to things. I catch myself in the act when forming concepts about others. I discover I can become more comfortable by falling into practice slightly while doing whatever. There are new possibilities… habits changing …my way of dealing with the world has a new toolbox that seems to open on its own.

I may actually be becoming more normal. Yeah, it can be frightening. 🙂 But for me, I have yet to have bursts of laughter.

Your mind sounds like fun! I’m going to lighten up when I meditate from now on, bring more curiosity and less seriousness to the time on the cushion. Maybe I’ll start laughing, too.

OK. Separate stream of thought. It’s okay to stop reading here. What follows is a struggling thought process on hard to articulate stuff, since I have more obstacles now than when I started JoL 3.

I just took JoL 3 with Cortland in Madison last March. It seems decades ago, now. At first, recalling all we’d been taught, it seemed easy and pleasant to practice. But then things changed. Regarding deconstructing the self, and deconstructing thoughts and emotions, and the recent monthly teaching on inner and outer….something. Basically, in that monthly teaching, Rinpoche talks about how important motivation is. He points out that when doing good things we should have the motivation to help others, and we should beware of any kind of thoughts of how we may personally benefit from what we’ve done. This teaching struck me in the wrong moment, for I’d just succeeded in doing something good for someone else, something that had taken a couple of weeks to bring to fruition. I was happy. Happy for the other person, happy I’d been able to do it, it was a good feeling.

After viewing the video, I recalled that, along with the initial impulse of starting this project of assistance, the motivation had been pure. As it took time to finish, I saw in my imagination various possible benefits for myself, too, in completing this action. When I’d succeeded, I was happy at the smile of the person I’d helped. But then watching the video, I suddenly felt bad about myself, because side benefits of self interest had crept in along with the initial desire to make someone happy. I felt like Rinpoche was telling me that the good actions I’d done were spoiled by some self interest that rose up while completing the goal. Then, I thought, “Do I have to believe this? That nothing I do to benefit others is worth anything unless I’m totally without self-interest?” I felt almost betrayed by being held (I thought) to such a high standard.

This made me rethink the self I was deconstructing in practice.

I could have taken the moment and just “noticed” the emotions I was going through, or tried to see the “me” feeling of the experience. I do use these techniques in daily life because they pop into my mind at the right time sometimes, and make things smoother.

However, I realized logically that if there is no self, there is no difference between self and other besides point of view. In other words, the person I helped was other than “me.” But, if the deconstructing the self methods are there to allow us to see there is no self to be found apart from whatever comes through our awareness to be noticed, then everything we notice is “other” than “self” including our emotions, feelings, sensations. So, if we are to care about all sentient beings, and if that which I experience as Me or Mine cannot be found apart from fleeting forms in awareness, such that logically we might say, “I find no Me,” that means that all the part of ourselves that we think of as Me are Other than Me. So, if we truly want to practice compassion, we have to include in our love everything we observe when we look for Me. This means that My reaction to anOther’s emotional state or perceived need ought not to vary much from My reaction to all the parts I think are Myself. In other words, we seem to have self interest now, and perhaps this is to be transcended, but….. we have to have as much compassion for the bits that arise that we identify usually as Self as we do for bits of experience that arise as that we think of as Other. If none of it is a single separate permanent Me, then ….. [these kind of analyses can go on forever, and I would not be surprised if one day I fell in love with my own left foot, or started to think I was my key ring.]

But seriously, the emotions that arose while watching that video were complicated, but the main feeling was that Something was being threatened by the message that was taken from it. And Defensiveness was felt. Pain. Confusion. Even Fear. Thought processes occurred. Following memory though the past and projecting onto the possible future.

What was injured in those moments? Who felt that pain? I don’t think it was a false self, the feelings were transient, but the suffering as real as any suffering is real. Suffering is something to have compassion for. Like if a person is crying but you know that their perspective on what they’re crying about is inaccurate, the situation may require a bit of being comforting rather than just insisting there is really nothing to cry about. Since misperceptions, if what we’ve learned is true, can be very persistent, and it might take some time to “wake up”. So there should be some balance, I guess, between relating kindly to what we feel ourselves to be, and doing practice meant to wash away the misperception.

I was uninspired to meditate a couple days after the video. It was a real obstacle.

I decided that while there is this convincing experience of being a person with needs and feelings, my empathy seems to arise from that. Otherwise, why would I think Others need to be cherished and loved and cared for, if not for the same needs in myself? I decided to be sure to include “myself” in the vast expansion of beings to be cared for. Even while in the process of deconstructing. I decided that I needed to include more loving/kindness and compassion practice into my daily meditation practice before moving on to the deconstruction methods. I also decided that sometimes I would be more relaxed, and observe whatever thoughts and emotions came through with a welcome friendliness rather than a deconstructive agenda, perhaps slyly spying with a gentle eye to see how they come and go… just to change things up.

The other thing I noticed was that I was being too goal oriented while looking for “Me.” It was impossible to shake the practice from the overall context of knowing that we are not supposed to find it. Partially as a result the overall goal of finding this other thing I am supposed to at some point recognize, basic goodness or awareness itself, this goal that will be awesome beyond words and liberating, this looked for result, I was not genuinely, curiously looking for Me. What I mean is,

I realized that I was projecting results into the relatively distant future. The practice was just something to “get through.” And I realized that that isn’t how it works. I had to actually be curious about the self, looking for it without an attitude that I was looking for a culprit, something to eventually discarded. Believing that I knew in advance that what I was looking for was supposed to be unfindable, and that this would lead to something indescribably beneficial–that attitude was spoiling the meditation maybe a little. Because whatever I am hoping for is only possible in the present moment(s) of awareness. Whenever I make any breakthroughs, or have any glimpses, they will occur, whenever they occur, in the time of now. So, I was perhaps in some way closing off the possibility of any sort of insight happening in any particular session. With the assumption that insight would gradually occur after months of practice, I was not open to being surprised! That, and the belief I’d not find Me, made it an empty exercise after a while.

I was so attached to something like a conceptual understanding of what was supposed to happen that I was not really looking into Me. My constant intention to break everything into parts meant that this was what I experienced. If left little room to experience anything unexpected. Any moment could be the moment to discover reality. To catch a glimpse, but I’ve been too busy diligently bringing this Me into existence all the time so I can see its parts that my mental process leaves little room for any “Ah Ha” moments.

Long story short, (or, rather, even longer) I’ve learned I really need to play around with these methods, step back from them so as to approach them differently, or insert love and compassion all over the place so that if suffering is triggered unexpectedly, like when I took that video too heavily, I don’t get trapped in some kind of bad self image (bad self thinking always of itself, “self” judgement, defensiveness), but instead am ready to compassionize the situation.

Learning how important good distractions are when engaging in these sorts of analyses. To clear the palate, so to speak. I am going to immerse myself in some lovely fiction, now. This post was exhausting to write. Good for gaining insight, but exhausting. Thanks for the opportunity to explore my experiences “out loud” so to speak.

Now that I’ve read it over, I have the impulse to delete it, but I won’t. Maybe Edwin will see into my words and have some feedback. Or maybe this is something like what someone else might be experiencing, and it will actually be helpful to someone some day?

Here’s me posting to you. Click.

BTW I’ve taken up praying to Guru Rinpoche again, because I miss the devotional side of Tibetan Buddhism a bit. The imagining of already enlightened beings observing us compassionately. It’s a nice lead up to falling asleep. Being surrounded by Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. Best dreams that way. Very Mahayana.

@Andrew, @ Olivia – The practice of looking into the mirror, the first practice that Mingyur Rinpoche introduces in the Joy of Living 3 is one of the techniques from the tradition to begin to meditate on emptiness. It is very similar to imagining your experience as a dream, only in this case imagining your visual experience as a reflection, or even as if one is looking through a window. It is an antidote for our strong tendency to relate to our experience as a solid reality and is a subtle way to undermine this constant habit of solidifying our experience.

I also think it is helpful to distinguish the difference between relating to our world as unreal and simply not solid. In a way our world is definitely real, but it is not real the way we think it is, so to begin to get a taste of the etherial, insubstantial nature of our experience is a great way to start. That is what this exercise intends to do. @Andrew, you are right, this way of viewing our world can be extended to any sense experience, including our thoughts and emotions.

Hi, Andrew.

Percieving reality as a reflection in a mirror is my favorite !

It means I am sure (for the time being !) at least of two things :
1) the meditative “mirror experience” is never the same from one session to another ;
2) the more you rest, for some time, your mind gently on the peripheral (?) visual field, easier it is to perceive anything as a reflection in a mirror (during formal meditation) -including thoughts, sensations, sounds and even one’s body and being !

It just happens -I know, I know, it does not help much to read this !- without any attempt to qualify the reflection in the mirror.

Weather one feels it as a dream or else is just a mental comment about one’s practice (believe me : I do have to face this too, from time to time !), and can be looked at as a reflection in the mirror… as could be your feeling of weirdness, try it !

Enjoy yourself, for this is a GREAT exercise 🙂

This is a rough translation of my answer to Adrien :

Crazy-Monkey Mind (CMM) loves problems -we all experiment this point !
If we want to put CMM to a diet and avoid to nourrish it, it seems easier, to me, to begin the meditation step “perception and reality” with the simplest thoughts or “things”.

The only way of practice I found to manage this step is to identify on the spot :
– the fraction of a second within which the thought or the “thing” I am observing is coloured by the fact I AM examining it !
– the fraction of a second within which I am taken away at full gallop, as on horseback, far from the thought I am examining.

As soon as a judgement, an emotional justification, or the attempt to find the origin of the emotion arises, it means I am no longer experiencing reality !

Practicing kindly, and no longer than 3 minutes a session, one feels one is not riding a crazy horse -but, well… riding the mind is a real sportive activity !

If I may ask, I would be interested to read some advises from Edwin Kelley about all this.
Thanks.

Bonjour Adrien,

Le Singe-fou adore les problèmes, nous le constatons tous !
Pour éviter de le nourrir en croyant le mettre à la diète, il me paraît plus facile de commencer par “n’importe quelle chose” en allant au plus simple possible.

La seule façon dont j’ai pu effectuer cet exercice sur la perception de la réalité est d’être attentive à ceci :
– à partir de quelle fraction de seconde la pensée ou la “chose” que j’examine est-elle colorée par le fait que je l’examine ?
– à partir de quelle fraction de seconde suis-je embarquée hors de la seule perception ?
Dès qu’un jugement, une justification émotionnelle, ou une recherche de l’origine de l’émotion s’élève, c’est que je ne suis déjà plus dans la perception du réel !

En pratiquant tout doux et surtout à très petites doses -3 minutes maxi- on se laisse moins emporter -mais bon, c’est quand même un sacré sport !!!

Hi, I recently attended a Joy of Living Level 3 workshop with Myoshin. I’m trying to apply the teaching of “looking into the mirror”, but I was wondering what the essence of that instruction is. Is the idea to perceive a sense of the “unreality” of our surroundings? If that is true, is it a suitable substitute to imagine that the visual field is like a dream? I’ve heard that analogy before too, and it seemed easier to do than imagining a mirror.

Also, if that’s the case, what about other sensations? Are they supposed to be perceived as dreamlike as well, or should I just focus on the visual? (And what about thoughts – are my thoughts dreams as well? …that’s weird to think about).

Thanks so much!

Jonathan, Tergar has now produced practice guide books for all three levels of Joy of Living. They can be purchased from our online store. The level 3 booklet can be found here http://store.tergar.org/Awakening-Wisdom-A-Guide-to-Joy-of-Living-Level-I-p/pmawi.htm. Alternatively if you connect with your local Tergar Meditation Community or the people where you attended the level 3 they may be able to get you one.
Edwin

I did Level 3 with Tim Olmstead more than a year ago, and a lot of the specific teachings are lost to me. Is there somewhere I can get a text outline of the specific practices for Level 3?

As for Olivia’s question, I’m kind of a lower intermediate practitioner in that I’ve done all sorts of different meditation over the years, but am relatively new to Vajrayana in the last 3 years (since taking JOL1 with Tim Olmstead) or so. Anyway, I am also surprised by how the practice is, “kind of…easy.”

But then, why shouldn’t it be?

I delighted upon discovering the following description of the Dzogchen teachings from the Nyingma lineage here: http://tergar.org/about/tergar-lineage/nyingma/

“This radically direct approach points out the mind’s fundamental nature of luminous purity. According to its teachings, enlightenment is not a distant goal to strive toward, but an immanent reality that must be recognized in the present moment. Effort and agendas only serve to obscure the true nature of mind. Once this nature has been recognized, however, problems and negativity automatically dissolve, leaving the open space of pure awareness, in which the qualities of enlightenment spontaneously unfold.”

Any spiritual path is bound to have it’s ups and downs. But I’m happy to have found one that isn’t obsessed with making the path harder than it needs to be.

All the best,
Jonathan

Bonjour,
Je suis très heureux de rencontrer des interlocuteurs francophones dans cette section ! Merci !

J’aimerais échanger autour d’une étape du programe joie de vivre 3: celle de la distincion entre perception et réalité. Voici le moment où je me questionne:
“recognize how your ideas and beliefs color your perception” p25 du student handbook.
Quand je choisis une relation, une situation, une pensée (etc) à propos de moi même, je me demande quelle genre de donnée utiliser: des choses qui posent probleme? Ou n’importe quelle chose?
Puis, et c’est surtout là ma question, en reconnaissant les suppositions, croyances qui s’y rattachent, je me demande jusqu’à où pousser la reflexion (sans tomber dans la psychanalyse, ca peu aller loin!). J’ai en fait l’impression de commencer à reflechir, à nourir mon petit singe fou interieur. Pour moi c’est moins une experience méditative. Même si je sens vraiment qu’il y a quelque chose à apprendre, ca me questionne…
Comment vivez vous ces méditations là ?
Merci !

Bonjour aux francophones qui se joindraient volontiers au groupe de discussion et particulièrement à ceux qui ont suivi Joie de Vivre 3 à Paris, au printemps dernier !
Voici la version française du petit mot d’ouverture :

Grâce à Kathy, ce thème Joie de Vivre est maintenant prêt à s’ouvrir à l’exploration, à l’échange d’expériences, aux questions, aux espoirs et au désillusions relatifs à la pratique de Joie de Vivre 3.

Je suis si surprise de découvrir que cette pratique est d’une certaine façon… facile, qu’elle fait de la méditation un “espace de soulagement”, que je me demande comment d’autres, vous, amis méditants, vous en sortez au milieu de toutes les expériences qui s’élèvent sans prévenir lorsque vous êtes assis, comme moi, sur votre coussin : êtes-vous aussi emballés ?
Vous demandez-vous parfois si vous êtes toujours une personne normale ?
Affrontez-vous des moments de terreur ? Riez-vous brusquement aux éclats ?

J’ai été confrontée à tout ceci -y compris l’intempestif hurlement de l’Esprit-singe fou tandis que je m’occupais tranquillement à “déconstruire mon moi” : “Assassin ! Tu tentes de me tuer !”. C’était un tel cri du coeur que je me suis pétrifiée avant d’attraper un fou rire !

Thanks to Kathy, this Joy of Living topic is now ready to explore and exchange experiences, questions, hopes and dellusion about the practice of Joy of Living 3.

I am so surprised to discover how this practice is kind of… easy, makes meditation a relief, that I am wondering how you, fellows meditators, cope with all the experiences that arise without warning when you are sitting on your cushion : are you as thrilled as I ?
Do you sometime wonder if you are still a normal person ?
Do you face frightning moments ? Do you have burst of laughter ?

I faced all these -includin a sudden howling of Crazy Monky Mind as I was gently deconstructing “my self” : “Assassin ! You are intending to kill me !” It sounded so sincere I froze before laughing heartily !